1 00:00:19,285 --> 00:00:22,088 -Hello and welcome back to Book Lust. 2 00:00:22,455 --> 00:00:27,360 I'm Nancy Pearl, my guest today at Folio in Downtown Seattle 3 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:33,233 via Zoom is Dan Berger, whose new book is called “Stayed on Freedom, 4 00:00:33,233 --> 00:00:37,337 The Long History of Black Power Through One Family's Journey.” 5 00:00:37,704 --> 00:00:40,673 Dan teaches at the University of Washington, Bothell, 6 00:00:40,673 --> 00:00:44,310 and I'm so happy to welcome him to the show. 7 00:00:44,344 --> 00:00:47,947 Dan, thanks for taking time from grading 8 00:00:47,947 --> 00:00:51,251 final exams for,to talk to us today. 9 00:00:51,785 --> 00:00:52,952 -Thanks so much for having me. 10 00:00:52,952 --> 00:00:55,955 It's really a great pleasure. 11 00:00:55,955 --> 00:01:00,960 -Dan, your most recent book, “Stayed on Freedom,” 12 00:01:01,528 --> 00:01:04,531 gives readers a different view 13 00:01:04,597 --> 00:01:08,068 of Black of the Black Panthers. 14 00:01:08,134 --> 00:01:11,237 Would, would you would you would you agree? 15 00:01:11,371 --> 00:01:14,374 And would you expand upon that? 16 00:01:15,008 --> 00:01:17,177 -Yeah, well, I'll tell you that it gives the readers 17 00:01:17,177 --> 00:01:20,180 a different view of Black Power, 18 00:01:20,213 --> 00:01:22,849 because people often tend to 19 00:01:22,849 --> 00:01:26,219 to associate Black Power with the Black Panther Party, 20 00:01:26,219 --> 00:01:30,857 which is an unquestionably important organization in the history of Black Power. 21 00:01:31,524 --> 00:01:35,128 But one of the things this book does is locate Black Power in 22 00:01:35,728 --> 00:01:36,896 the civil rights movement. 23 00:01:36,896 --> 00:01:41,334 And so it's a biography of two long-time but little-known organizers 24 00:01:41,334 --> 00:01:44,671 who met in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee 25 00:01:45,138 --> 00:01:48,575 and who were both instrumental alongside many others 26 00:01:48,575 --> 00:01:53,513 in developing these ideas that we now associate with Black Power. 27 00:01:53,847 --> 00:01:58,785 And so the Panthers make very, you know, brief cameo appearances in the book. 28 00:01:58,785 --> 00:02:01,921 But it's you know, it's a book about Black Power that 29 00:02:01,921 --> 00:02:05,058 has very little about, about, about the Panthers. 30 00:02:06,226 --> 00:02:06,826 -Mm hmm. -And because I 31 00:02:06,826 --> 00:02:09,829 wanted to show the larger ecosystem 32 00:02:10,029 --> 00:02:13,233 that Black Power existed within and how, 33 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:15,668 you know, everyday people 34 00:02:15,668 --> 00:02:19,506 and the kind of folks who so rarely make it to the history books 35 00:02:19,506 --> 00:02:25,011 are actually the driving forces of change, even of something as grand 36 00:02:25,011 --> 00:02:28,948 and kind of world transforming as the idea of the Black Power. 37 00:02:29,215 --> 00:02:30,350 -Mm hmm. 38 00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:35,622 Because when, when, when most people think about the Black Panther Party, 39 00:02:35,788 --> 00:02:39,726 we think about Chicago, you know, 40 00:02:39,726 --> 00:02:44,697 the Chicago convention, and we think about the leaders. 41 00:02:44,731 --> 00:02:47,700 You know, and the the big, big, big 42 00:02:47,700 --> 00:02:50,270 the big ideas that were. 43 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:53,773 But, but what you've done in this book so well 44 00:02:54,107 --> 00:02:58,745 through focusing on this couple is 45 00:03:00,046 --> 00:03:02,882 partly is to show that 46 00:03:02,882 --> 00:03:05,285 that anybody can make a difference, 47 00:03:05,285 --> 00:03:06,953 you know. 48 00:03:06,953 --> 00:03:09,522 -That’s exactly right. 49 00:03:09,522 --> 00:03:13,293 And you know the book follows these two people, Michael Simmons and Zohara 50 00:03:13,293 --> 00:03:18,131 Simmons, who are now a divorced couple, but lifelong friends, 51 00:03:19,098 --> 00:03:23,903 um, through their own their own journeys of becoming activists. 52 00:03:23,937 --> 00:03:28,274 And one of the one of the, you know, idiosyncratic ways that, that 53 00:03:29,709 --> 00:03:32,045 they sort of found themselves involved 54 00:03:32,045 --> 00:03:35,048 in political social justice activity, 55 00:03:35,782 --> 00:03:38,851 but also what kept them going because so often 56 00:03:39,319 --> 00:03:43,056 these stories that we have a pretty narrow focus. 57 00:03:43,122 --> 00:03:45,425 You know, we talk about the ‘60s, 58 00:03:45,425 --> 00:03:48,828 you know, either as a decade or even sometimes as a micro decade 59 00:03:49,562 --> 00:03:51,864 of the civil rights movement from, you know, 60 00:03:51,864 --> 00:03:57,270 1955 to 1965 or 1960 to 1964 61 00:03:57,270 --> 00:04:00,273 or these are so often our stories of the movement. 62 00:04:00,373 --> 00:04:04,277 And so, you know, knowing these, these people, 63 00:04:04,277 --> 00:04:07,880 as I have for many years, I knew that they were still involved. 64 00:04:07,947 --> 00:04:08,915 And I know 65 00:04:09,882 --> 00:04:10,116 that they 66 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:13,119 both began involvement in different ways as teenagers. 67 00:04:13,186 --> 00:04:16,289 And so, you know, now they're, they're both close to 80. 68 00:04:16,322 --> 00:04:18,491 So, you know, we have 69 00:04:18,491 --> 00:04:21,427 more than six decades of experience to draw from. 70 00:04:21,427 --> 00:04:24,430 And I think it tells a much more interesting 71 00:04:24,430 --> 00:04:27,734 and a much more dynamic story 72 00:04:28,134 --> 00:04:31,871 of the civil rights era of the Black Power movement, 73 00:04:32,205 --> 00:04:35,808 when we can look at the, you know, the quote unquote, foot soldiers, 74 00:04:36,342 --> 00:04:39,679 the kind of unheralded figures who actually were 75 00:04:39,679 --> 00:04:43,950 on the front lines of a lot of this social justice activity. 76 00:04:43,950 --> 00:04:48,187 -Mm hmm. How did you find these, these people? 77 00:04:48,421 --> 00:04:52,258 -Yeah, I mean, you know, in some ways, it's it's enough to make one believe 78 00:04:52,392 --> 00:04:55,561 in fate or kismet or even 79 00:04:55,561 --> 00:04:56,863 some larger force. 80 00:04:56,863 --> 00:05:00,566 So Zohara Simmons dropped out of school 81 00:05:00,566 --> 00:05:03,569 in 1964 to be a full time activist. 82 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:06,773 Went back to school later in life to finish her 83 00:05:06,773 --> 00:05:09,776 bachelor's degree and ultimately got her Ph.D. 84 00:05:09,842 --> 00:05:13,279 And she started as a professor at the University of Florida 85 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,082 the same year I started there as a freshman. 86 00:05:16,082 --> 00:05:18,918 And so I heard her speak because she was a guest 87 00:05:18,918 --> 00:05:21,921 speaker in a history class on the civil rights movement. 88 00:05:22,255 --> 00:05:25,491 And I was just blown away by her story. 89 00:05:25,491 --> 00:05:29,462 And it was really inspiring both to hear, to hear her story, 90 00:05:29,462 --> 00:05:32,465 but also it was sort of literally inspiring. 91 00:05:32,532 --> 00:05:33,933 And I would hear her speak. 92 00:05:33,933 --> 00:05:36,969 And then I marched to the campus librarian and checked out all the books 93 00:05:36,969 --> 00:05:37,470 that I had. 94 00:05:37,470 --> 00:05:40,940 And really, you know, at 18, 95 00:05:41,174 --> 00:05:44,677 I just inspired me to want to learn more about history. 96 00:05:45,945 --> 00:05:49,315 And when I graduated college, I moved to Philadelphia, 97 00:05:49,315 --> 00:05:53,486 which is where Michael Simmons was, is from. 98 00:05:53,486 --> 00:05:57,990 And though he no longer lived there, he would still visit quite frequently. 99 00:05:57,990 --> 00:06:00,593 And I met him pretty soon thereafter. 100 00:06:00,593 --> 00:06:04,764 And it was a similar experience of being just, you know, blown away 101 00:06:05,398 --> 00:06:08,935 by the intricacies of his story 102 00:06:09,635 --> 00:06:13,873 and really by how much both of them, 103 00:06:14,507 --> 00:06:16,809 their stories had not been captured by the historical record. 104 00:06:17,343 --> 00:06:20,480 And, you know, there was a lot that that had been 105 00:06:21,013 --> 00:06:24,417 a lot of those of their experiences that are shared by their generation, 106 00:06:24,817 --> 00:06:29,155 you know, being outraged and moved to action by the murders of Emmett Till. 107 00:06:29,589 --> 00:06:32,592 As one 108 00:06:33,393 --> 00:06:35,561 profound but significant example. 109 00:06:35,561 --> 00:06:37,397 But then there was so much 110 00:06:37,397 --> 00:06:41,401 that, that was not there and there there's so much that was not, not captured. 111 00:06:41,534 --> 00:06:44,337 Some of it and is, is just about 112 00:06:45,772 --> 00:06:47,840 the problem of narrowing 113 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:51,144 to a particular time period, as I was saying a minute ago. 114 00:06:51,911 --> 00:06:54,714 But even within that, you know, there were different, 115 00:06:54,714 --> 00:06:58,584 different groups within the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, 116 00:06:58,584 --> 00:07:03,356 and they both were part of one called the Atlanta Project, which was SNCC’s 117 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:08,494 first attempt to organize in a big city after having mostly 118 00:07:08,728 --> 00:07:11,731 spending its time organizing rural Southerners. 119 00:07:12,532 --> 00:07:15,635 And, you know, there's very little about the Atlanta project before 120 00:07:15,668 --> 00:07:16,469 “Stayed on Freedom,” 121 00:07:16,469 --> 00:07:18,871 and much of it was pretty dismissive. 122 00:07:18,871 --> 00:07:24,110 And so this was a chance to really dig deep into an aspect of the civil 123 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:27,113 rights movement that had been overlooked, but one that really, 124 00:07:28,915 --> 00:07:31,517 at the risk of being grandiose, changed the world 125 00:07:31,517 --> 00:07:34,620 because that is an important seedbed 126 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:37,790 from where the ideas of Black Power were developed and grew. 127 00:07:38,558 --> 00:07:42,361 And so just sort of knowing them and their stories and knowing how much 128 00:07:42,995 --> 00:07:46,833 those insights still carry them all around the world, 129 00:07:46,833 --> 00:07:50,736 they're both globetrotting international human rights activists 130 00:07:50,736 --> 00:07:54,907 into their seventies, was a story I felt like I really needed to tell. 131 00:07:56,609 --> 00:07:58,678 -Did they feel that 132 00:07:58,678 --> 00:08:02,615 their story was worthwhile telling? 133 00:08:02,748 --> 00:08:05,952 Or did you have to sell them on it? 134 00:08:06,953 --> 00:08:11,023 -Yeah. You know, they're both such great storytellers. 135 00:08:11,023 --> 00:08:15,828 They're great people to just, you know, chat with and be at a party with them. 136 00:08:15,828 --> 00:08:20,633 So, and so, you know, they, they had some experience 137 00:08:20,633 --> 00:08:24,270 telling their stories informally in different places, but they both 138 00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:28,608 were quite skeptical that there would be an audience for the book. 139 00:08:30,243 --> 00:08:33,246 And, you know, I mean, as you said 140 00:08:33,813 --> 00:08:37,049 earlier in your question, so many of our histories 141 00:08:37,049 --> 00:08:40,720 are just of the kind of formal recognized leaders 142 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,723 who were giving speeches or in front of the camera. 143 00:08:44,023 --> 00:08:48,060 And, and, you know, they're aware of that as much as anybody. 144 00:08:48,094 --> 00:08:50,062 And so I think that was more of their concern, 145 00:08:51,264 --> 00:08:52,832 whether people would, would 146 00:08:52,832 --> 00:08:57,270 care about the work of these sort of frontline activists. 147 00:08:57,904 --> 00:09:02,108 But it just felt so important to me, you know, talking to my students 148 00:09:02,108 --> 00:09:05,645 or just other people who, who only 149 00:09:05,645 --> 00:09:08,648 recognize these few handful of names. 150 00:09:08,881 --> 00:09:13,252 Well, you know, there's 250,000 people that go to the March on Washington 151 00:09:13,553 --> 00:09:17,990 and there's 450,000 people that boycott New York City schools 152 00:09:17,990 --> 00:09:23,162 in protest of,of racist curriculum and poor funding. 153 00:09:23,563 --> 00:09:25,031 You know, 154 00:09:25,031 --> 00:09:27,366 right before the March on Washington. 155 00:09:27,366 --> 00:09:30,403 Hundreds of thousands of people participated all over the country 156 00:09:30,403 --> 00:09:31,237 and all over the world. 157 00:09:31,237 --> 00:09:33,873 Millions participated in these kinds of movements 158 00:09:33,873 --> 00:09:37,510 and if we only know half a dozen names, 159 00:09:37,810 --> 00:09:41,881 we're missing how that happened and we're missing why that happened, 160 00:09:42,281 --> 00:09:46,018 and we're missing the legacy of all of those efforts. 161 00:09:46,252 --> 00:09:48,454 -Your books are 162 00:09:48,454 --> 00:09:50,856 your earlier books and “Stayed on 163 00:09:50,856 --> 00:09:53,859 Freedom” are, are really 164 00:09:54,694 --> 00:09:56,462 um, focused on, 165 00:09:56,462 --> 00:09:58,664 like person to person interviews. 166 00:09:58,664 --> 00:10:02,268 I mean, you spent a lot of time clearly sitting down 167 00:10:02,268 --> 00:10:05,304 with Zohara and Michael talking to them. 168 00:10:05,304 --> 00:10:09,208 And your earlier books as well are in that. 169 00:10:09,976 --> 00:10:13,279 Your research comes out of, in a way, those interviews. 170 00:10:14,046 --> 00:10:16,315 Is that a, 171 00:10:16,315 --> 00:10:19,318 is that a, a, a format that 172 00:10:19,352 --> 00:10:22,888 that you are particularly comfortable in? 173 00:10:23,889 --> 00:10:25,992 Or did you feel it was the best way to get 174 00:10:25,992 --> 00:10:29,128 the, the meat of what you what you wanted? 175 00:10:29,562 --> 00:10:33,599 -Right. Yeah, You know, a little bit of both, I think 176 00:10:34,333 --> 00:10:39,271 even though I've done a lot of interviews and earlier books, this was a whole 177 00:10:39,271 --> 00:10:43,275 different order to approach a biography and think of it as a biography. 178 00:10:43,275 --> 00:10:48,114 So it's not just sort of slotting interviews into a larger story, but it is 179 00:10:48,581 --> 00:10:53,252 how do you tell the larger story of and through these people's lives? 180 00:10:53,252 --> 00:10:58,924 And so going into it, you know, it was such a benefit and a blessing 181 00:10:58,924 --> 00:11:02,762 to be able to work on a project with and about people who are still alive. 182 00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:06,899 So I knew, you know, and I felt I've done interviews, 183 00:11:06,899 --> 00:11:10,436 I know how to do this, but this was a much 184 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:13,439 more depth full level of engagement. 185 00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:14,940 Some previous books, I would interview 186 00:11:14,940 --> 00:11:18,511 someone usually just once, so we'd spend a couple hours together. 187 00:11:18,878 --> 00:11:22,214 Some people, maybe we would do a second or third interview, 188 00:11:22,882 --> 00:11:27,053 but this is, you know, years of interviews 189 00:11:27,453 --> 00:11:32,124 on top of many years of friendship and knowing each other. 190 00:11:33,092 --> 00:11:37,530 So it was a level of intimacy and engagement that 191 00:11:38,564 --> 00:11:41,467 that is far different than I realized 192 00:11:41,467 --> 00:11:44,470 it would be when I set out on the project. 193 00:11:44,670 --> 00:11:49,108 -Yeah, And actually, I think that comes through in the book 194 00:11:49,108 --> 00:11:52,111 and the way the book is written and then the 195 00:11:52,411 --> 00:11:56,248 the insights into their marriage 196 00:11:56,248 --> 00:12:02,121 and the insights into the three of you as partners. 197 00:12:02,488 --> 00:12:03,055 -Yeah. 198 00:12:03,055 --> 00:12:09,361 -In, in this book and in, and in the work for social justice which,which you are 199 00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:13,632 still involved in as a, 200 00:12:13,733 --> 00:12:17,670 as a college professor but as a person I think. 201 00:12:18,070 --> 00:12:21,006 -Yeah I think that's something that, that sort of bonded us 202 00:12:21,006 --> 00:12:25,678 and that allowed us to sort of do this project in a different way. 203 00:12:26,412 --> 00:12:28,948 -Are there other people 204 00:12:28,948 --> 00:12:33,152 in the Black Power movement or other people in, 205 00:12:33,152 --> 00:12:36,122 I mean, I know one of your books was on 206 00:12:37,189 --> 00:12:39,391 SDS, 207 00:12:39,391 --> 00:12:41,026 The Weather Underground. 208 00:12:41,026 --> 00:12:44,330 What was that like when you, when you did that? 209 00:12:44,597 --> 00:12:48,300 -Yeah. You know, that was my first book 210 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:51,303 and I was very young and very new 211 00:12:51,771 --> 00:12:53,973 of the process. 212 00:12:53,973 --> 00:12:59,078 And so I look back on that book with a lot of fondness 213 00:12:59,078 --> 00:13:02,081 because I think I sort of learned how to write a book through 214 00:13:02,081 --> 00:13:05,217 writing it, and also some bit of trepidation 215 00:13:05,818 --> 00:13:08,220 because I was so young. 216 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:11,223 And then I hope, I hope it stands up. 217 00:13:11,957 --> 00:13:14,160 But, you know, I think that that's certainly an example 218 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,163 where I knew someone 219 00:13:17,363 --> 00:13:19,298 and that was part of my way in. 220 00:13:19,298 --> 00:13:22,701 But then a lot of the people who I interviewed for that book, you know, 221 00:13:23,035 --> 00:13:27,273 yeah, we spoke a couple of times for, you know, a few hours. 222 00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:30,810 But, you know, that's certainly the project where I learned 223 00:13:30,810 --> 00:13:34,180 what has become my method, I guess, as a writer 224 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:35,948 and as a scholar, 225 00:13:35,948 --> 00:13:41,787 that is a balance of interviews and archival work and sort of going back 226 00:13:41,787 --> 00:13:45,257 and forth or really putting them in conversation with each other. 227 00:13:45,324 --> 00:13:48,327 -Putting the archival work in conversation 228 00:13:48,327 --> 00:13:51,397 with, with the, with the present, actually. 229 00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:53,632 -Yes. -Yeah. -Yeah. 230 00:13:53,632 --> 00:13:58,470 And being able to sort of draw from people's reflections of 231 00:13:59,638 --> 00:14:00,739 being, 232 00:14:00,739 --> 00:14:04,677 being there, wherever “there” was, that there was a presence or being a part 233 00:14:04,877 --> 00:14:08,914 of the recent past and also being older and read 234 00:14:08,948 --> 00:14:12,451 and you can sort of look back on what you did in your 20s 235 00:14:12,451 --> 00:14:16,021 as someone in your 50s and 60s or something. 236 00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:19,158 And so, you know, 237 00:14:19,158 --> 00:14:22,428 I think I've just really been interested in that kind of, um, 238 00:14:23,896 --> 00:14:25,497 on the one hand, 239 00:14:25,497 --> 00:14:28,934 you know, historical precision in what I am writing, 240 00:14:29,435 --> 00:14:34,106 but on the other hand, a kind of blurring of the past and the present 241 00:14:34,206 --> 00:14:39,378 in the process, I can go through these archival documents 242 00:14:39,912 --> 00:14:45,184 and ask someone who wrote them or who read them and was influenced by them 243 00:14:45,251 --> 00:14:48,821 to, to sort of reflect on their meaning and significance. 244 00:14:49,021 --> 00:14:52,057 -Was there anything in particular 245 00:14:52,057 --> 00:14:56,795 that surprised you about Michael and Zohara’s experience? 246 00:14:56,795 --> 00:15:00,532 I mean, something that illuminated the Black Power movement for you 247 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,668 in a way that it hadn't been? 248 00:15:03,535 --> 00:15:06,438 -Yeah, there's a lot there. 249 00:15:06,438 --> 00:15:09,141 I think one thing when I began the project, 250 00:15:09,141 --> 00:15:12,077 Michael was living in Hungary, where he had lived 251 00:15:12,077 --> 00:15:15,447 for a long time and was where he was engaged 252 00:15:15,447 --> 00:15:20,185 in a lot of human rights work, particularly with Roma communities. 253 00:15:20,819 --> 00:15:25,724 And I, you know, when I began the project, I had been studying 254 00:15:26,825 --> 00:15:29,728 Black studies, African American history for a long time. 255 00:15:29,728 --> 00:15:31,797 I had a 256 00:15:31,797 --> 00:15:36,869 I had a decent sense of a kind of Black internationalism 257 00:15:36,869 --> 00:15:41,106 that connected Black Americans to people 258 00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:44,510 in the African continent, that connected people across the Americas. 259 00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:47,713 But I was still baffled with 260 00:15:47,713 --> 00:15:51,917 how does this Black Power organizer find himself 261 00:15:51,917 --> 00:15:54,553 in Hungary working with Roma communities? 262 00:15:54,553 --> 00:15:57,489 That, to me felt 263 00:15:57,489 --> 00:15:58,791 a bridge too far. 264 00:15:58,791 --> 00:16:01,794 I didn't quite get that piece of it, 265 00:16:01,827 --> 00:16:06,298 um and so I think doing this research and I'm really, you know, sort of digging, 266 00:16:06,332 --> 00:16:10,369 digging deep with, with him and his history and just sort of following, 267 00:16:10,903 --> 00:16:13,906 following the path of how he got there. 268 00:16:14,940 --> 00:16:16,742 It just illuminated 269 00:16:16,742 --> 00:16:20,879 that Black internationalism is not just and has never been just about the, 270 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:24,049 quote unquote, “Black world,” but it has always been about the world 271 00:16:24,883 --> 00:16:27,886 and that kind of orientation to people who are being oppressed. 272 00:16:27,886 --> 00:16:31,156 And what does it mean to empower them 273 00:16:31,623 --> 00:16:35,794 to fight for, for their own lives and fight for their own communities? 274 00:16:36,528 --> 00:16:40,032 And I think it's something that I understood 275 00:16:40,032 --> 00:16:43,035 so much deeper as a result of doing this project. 276 00:16:44,536 --> 00:16:46,905 -One of the, 277 00:16:46,972 --> 00:16:49,975 when, when we met at the King County 278 00:16:50,509 --> 00:16:52,644 Library fundraiser, 279 00:16:52,644 --> 00:16:55,814 Literary Lions, we were at tables next to each other, 280 00:16:55,814 --> 00:17:00,753 and of course, I was really interested in your book, and I'm so happy 281 00:17:00,753 --> 00:17:03,989 that this worked out that we could talk more about it. But, 282 00:17:04,223 --> 00:17:09,561 but I asked you what you were working on now, and the answer 283 00:17:09,561 --> 00:17:13,766 that you that you what you told me was just fascinating to me. 284 00:17:13,766 --> 00:17:16,602 So can I ask that same question? 285 00:17:16,602 --> 00:17:20,439 So, so Dan, what are you working on now? 286 00:17:20,773 --> 00:17:24,943 -Yeah, I'm embarrassed that I'm not further along in the 287 00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:27,012 in the months in 288 00:17:27,012 --> 00:17:31,050 between, but I'm in the early stages of a of a project 289 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:35,554 that is essentially an incarcerated people's history of the United States. 290 00:17:35,821 --> 00:17:38,290 So thinking through 291 00:17:38,290 --> 00:17:41,360 what does this country look like from the perspective of those 292 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,430 who it has incarcerated and imprisoned? 293 00:17:44,963 --> 00:17:47,966 And of course, prisons have changed over time. 294 00:17:48,033 --> 00:17:51,036 But I think there is a certain tradition 295 00:17:51,703 --> 00:17:54,606 among the 296 00:17:54,606 --> 00:17:56,408 knowledge and ideas 297 00:17:56,408 --> 00:17:59,411 that get recirculated within 298 00:17:59,611 --> 00:18:02,848 jails, prisons, detention centers, workhouses, um, 299 00:18:03,749 --> 00:18:06,452 that I want to explore in this book. 300 00:18:06,652 --> 00:18:10,255 -And do the same way by interviewing. 301 00:18:10,456 --> 00:18:13,625 -So this book will be a little bit different because it's trying 302 00:18:13,659 --> 00:18:18,931 to go, it's trying to go to the start of the United States from before. 303 00:18:18,964 --> 00:18:21,366 And so it's drawn you know, a lot of my work 304 00:18:21,366 --> 00:18:25,437 has been in conversation with the 1960s 305 00:18:25,437 --> 00:18:26,905 moving forward. 306 00:18:26,905 --> 00:18:29,908 And this I'm going back to the 1760s. 307 00:18:29,908 --> 00:18:33,345 So as I certainly won't have the same kind 308 00:18:33,345 --> 00:18:36,348 of source material and interviews. 309 00:18:36,782 --> 00:18:39,585 As I move more towards the present. 310 00:18:40,152 --> 00:18:42,988 Yeah, certainly the interviews will be, 311 00:18:42,988 --> 00:18:46,492 will be a part of that, but this will be much more archivally oriented. 312 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:50,696 -Do you feel a kind of, um, 313 00:18:51,497 --> 00:18:54,433 not to put more pressure on you, but do you feel [laughs] 314 00:18:54,433 --> 00:18:59,605 do you feel a kind of pressure that you need to, to get those 315 00:18:59,605 --> 00:19:03,208 the views of those like old, older prisoners, 316 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:06,445 you know, down in some way? 317 00:19:06,445 --> 00:19:08,180 -Oh, absolutely. 318 00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:11,250 You know, I have long felt that we needed, 319 00:19:11,283 --> 00:19:16,522 That we need a version of the Works Progress Administration, 320 00:19:16,788 --> 00:19:19,725 you know, effort that happened in the 1930s to, 321 00:19:19,725 --> 00:19:24,029 to capture their, capture’s maybe the wrong word, but to record 322 00:19:24,029 --> 00:19:27,599 the voices and experiences of people who had been enslaved. 323 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:31,236 And that has given us this, 324 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:34,173 you know, profound, complicated 325 00:19:34,173 --> 00:19:36,875 because of the prejudices of many of the interviewers, 326 00:19:36,875 --> 00:19:41,146 but a profound archive of oral history about slavery. 327 00:19:42,247 --> 00:19:45,217 And, and I think certainly with the, 328 00:19:46,585 --> 00:19:48,387 you know, with less kind of patronizing 329 00:19:48,387 --> 00:19:52,324 and paternalistic attitudes, but I think we need to do similar things 330 00:19:52,324 --> 00:19:57,629 for people who are currently incarcerated or, or are formerly incarcerated. 331 00:19:58,163 --> 00:20:01,633 -How do you go about finding, how are you, 332 00:20:01,667 --> 00:20:07,739 how are you going about finding the right people to talk to and getting permission? 333 00:20:07,739 --> 00:20:10,742 Actually, I guess that would be another 334 00:20:11,643 --> 00:20:13,145 good question to ask you. 335 00:20:13,145 --> 00:20:14,947 -Yeah, for sure. 336 00:20:14,947 --> 00:20:18,417 And this is where I'm still kind of mapping out 337 00:20:18,417 --> 00:20:21,687 the project in terms of who to include. 338 00:20:21,687 --> 00:20:23,388 And I think it will be, 339 00:20:23,388 --> 00:20:26,758 um, you know, I think there are some people who are 340 00:20:27,259 --> 00:20:31,096 so clearly a significant to the story 341 00:20:31,096 --> 00:20:35,100 of American incarceration that they need to be there. 342 00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:38,136 I've done a lot of research on George Jackson, who remains 343 00:20:38,837 --> 00:20:41,006 although long deceased, remains an influential figure. 344 00:20:41,006 --> 00:20:43,408 So, you know, he's someone who clearly belongs to that story. 345 00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:47,246 Eugene Debs, as 346 00:20:47,246 --> 00:20:50,349 you know, the presidential candidate from prison 347 00:20:51,083 --> 00:20:54,086 to some date, the most successful presidential candidate. 348 00:20:54,086 --> 00:20:57,222 -And we might have another one who knows. 349 00:20:57,923 --> 00:21:01,159 -So, you know, I think there are some takers 350 00:21:01,159 --> 00:21:04,162 who are clearly sort of canonical 351 00:21:04,429 --> 00:21:07,432 in the story. 352 00:21:07,432 --> 00:21:11,169 But, but part of the point in that project, really, 353 00:21:11,503 --> 00:21:14,840 I think a lot of my work is to bring, bring attention 354 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,610 and focus to people who are not well known and, and yet who, 355 00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:21,947 who illuminate some sort of profound truths. 356 00:21:22,314 --> 00:21:25,317 So there is someone who is also deceased, 357 00:21:26,518 --> 00:21:29,087 but a man named Yaki Sayles, 358 00:21:29,087 --> 00:21:32,424 who was a really sophisticated thinker 359 00:21:32,424 --> 00:21:37,529 about changes to, to the inner city 360 00:21:37,896 --> 00:21:41,199 that were happening at this alongside the rise of mass incarceration. 361 00:21:41,433 --> 00:21:44,703 And he was writing in Illinois in the ‘70s and ’80s. 362 00:21:45,203 --> 00:21:48,740 And so, you know, he's someone that I'm really keen to include in the book. 363 00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:53,578 And I'm on the advisory board of this effort called the American Prison 364 00:21:53,578 --> 00:21:57,382 Newspaper Archive, which is an attempt to digitize prison newspapers 365 00:21:57,382 --> 00:22:01,219 from their beginning in the 1800s all the way to the present. 366 00:22:01,353 --> 00:22:06,091 -Wow. -It's really going to be relying a lot on that project as a way to 367 00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:12,030 to identify and work through this kind of literary tradition. 368 00:22:13,231 --> 00:22:14,733 -As someone 369 00:22:14,733 --> 00:22:17,436 who's been interested in and worked 370 00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:22,240 in the social justice movement yourself, 371 00:22:23,275 --> 00:22:26,378 your family, what do you see, 372 00:22:28,213 --> 00:22:31,683 are you a saver in your own in your own life? 373 00:22:31,683 --> 00:22:35,354 I mean, are you, you know, do you like save every, 374 00:22:36,988 --> 00:22:40,125 I guess people aren't getting letters, but do you know what I mean? 375 00:22:40,125 --> 00:22:44,663 Are you somebody because you know the importance of archival material? 376 00:22:45,163 --> 00:22:48,934 -No, there's a reason I have my background blurred on Zoom. 377 00:22:48,934 --> 00:22:52,771 It's because it's a complete mess behind me, 378 00:22:53,739 --> 00:22:56,708 filing cabinets overflowing with papers. And, 379 00:22:57,008 --> 00:23:00,011 you know, more and more prison systems are 380 00:23:00,379 --> 00:23:03,648 are giving some version of email. 381 00:23:03,682 --> 00:23:08,019 But there are still many incarcerated people who only have access to the mail. 382 00:23:08,887 --> 00:23:12,023 I think the work that I have done around 383 00:23:13,258 --> 00:23:16,128 or against mass incarceration, with the work I've done with different 384 00:23:16,128 --> 00:23:20,799 incarcerated people has given me a lifelong love of physical mail. 385 00:23:20,832 --> 00:23:24,569 And so, yeah, a lot a lot of what exists in one of the filing 386 00:23:24,569 --> 00:23:27,572 cabinets behind me is, is letters 387 00:23:28,940 --> 00:23:30,809 and mail, so yeah, 388 00:23:30,809 --> 00:23:33,812 I am a horrible, horrible savior. 389 00:23:34,646 --> 00:23:38,950 -Well, that's probably as a historian, that's probably really, 390 00:23:40,118 --> 00:23:43,121 really good in many ways. 391 00:23:44,322 --> 00:23:47,325 What's the next area? 392 00:23:47,659 --> 00:23:50,929 Do you think that that that the prison that the prison, 393 00:23:51,062 --> 00:23:54,332 the prison work that you're doing, which certainly intersects 394 00:23:54,699 --> 00:23:59,037 a lot with everything else that you've done with the Black Power, 395 00:23:59,504 --> 00:24:02,507 you know, the state on freedom? 396 00:24:02,641 --> 00:24:05,610 Do you do you see yourself sticking with 397 00:24:05,610 --> 00:24:09,014 those two as your kind of life's work or. 398 00:24:10,315 --> 00:24:13,952 Yeah, you know, it's, it's hard to say. 399 00:24:13,952 --> 00:24:17,556 And in some ways I don't I don't have a novel inside of me. 400 00:24:19,691 --> 00:24:23,228 But I think, you know, certainly as a scholar 401 00:24:23,261 --> 00:24:28,467 of African American history, you know, that, that is 402 00:24:28,767 --> 00:24:31,503 the realm of ideas in history, 403 00:24:31,503 --> 00:24:35,807 as I am always working through, thinking through. 404 00:24:36,308 --> 00:24:39,311 And I think there's no way to, to engage 405 00:24:39,311 --> 00:24:43,048 with that field or with our reality 406 00:24:43,415 --> 00:24:46,251 that is not also so principally engaged 407 00:24:46,251 --> 00:24:49,254 with mass incarceration. 408 00:24:49,454 --> 00:24:54,192 -Right. -So I think is ignoble experiment and, and locking people up. 409 00:24:55,293 --> 00:25:00,298 And in some way that feels very much a part of who I am and what I'll be doing. 410 00:25:00,298 --> 00:25:02,434 But the forms that that will take even 411 00:25:02,434 --> 00:25:06,371 I think have changed over time and into generative ways. 412 00:25:06,638 --> 00:25:09,508 -Right. And do you learn a lot from your students? 413 00:25:09,508 --> 00:25:10,976 -Absolutely. Yeah. 414 00:25:10,976 --> 00:25:16,948 And, you know, the Bothell campus of UW is a really special place to be. 415 00:25:16,948 --> 00:25:21,786 And I have a lot of students who are really passionate 416 00:25:21,786 --> 00:25:25,957 about these ideas and also who have different kinds of life experience. 417 00:25:25,957 --> 00:25:30,028 So when I teach about mass incarceration, I frequently have students 418 00:25:30,028 --> 00:25:34,466 who have loved ones who are incarcerated or who themselves have been incarcerated. 419 00:25:34,966 --> 00:25:37,502 And, you know, I wouldn't expect otherwise, 420 00:25:37,502 --> 00:25:41,740 knowing what I know about how many people have, have been 421 00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:44,876 incarcerated in this country, right, if the numbers are what they are, 422 00:25:45,243 --> 00:25:48,980 we should expect every classroom reasonably is going to have someone 423 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:51,983 with a kind of personal connection to these issues. 424 00:25:51,983 --> 00:25:56,521 -Well, Dan, thank you so much for joining us today and um, 425 00:25:57,756 --> 00:25:59,891 good luck with the new book. 426 00:25:59,891 --> 00:26:03,061 And I just want to say that “Stayed on Freedom” 427 00:26:03,428 --> 00:26:07,098 was a book that I stayed on reading because it was just um, 428 00:26:07,766 --> 00:26:10,735 it was a great combination of the personal, 429 00:26:10,869 --> 00:26:15,307 it's where the personal and the, and the public intersect. 430 00:26:15,307 --> 00:26:17,342 And I thought that was just beautifully done. 431 00:26:17,342 --> 00:26:21,379 So congratulations. -Really tried to do that in this book. 432 00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:23,848 So I’m glad that that comes through. 433 00:26:23,848 --> 00:26:26,418 -Thank you so much. -Thank you -Bye.